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You're listening to the Liminal Listeners Pod, created by Liminal Council Productions.

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Today, on September 13th, 2065, I find myself...

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Oh, by the way, I'm Elodie Lane Hookway-Landin, coming to you from our shoreline office.

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And I'm recording an episode that is more personal than I usually do.

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In this episode, I will speak about the work of Professor Samantha Hookway.

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aka my mother. I will speak about her, about her living legacy, and her practice of liminal

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listening. Stay tuned. This episode will be in three acts and my friend and colleague at the

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Liminal Council, Jessica, is here alongside to interview me for Act 1. While in Act 2 is a remix

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of some recordings done when I was in a course in gymnasium, I can't believe I'm bringing it in,

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but it was good. Then finally, Acts 3 will reveal the biggest challenge the Council has had to this

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date. To introduce the three acts, I need to tell you that it all started some years ago,

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when my mother was exactly my age, and on this very same day, September 13th, but in 2024.

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Usually we speak in our shared waterful language, for which we have created together,

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but today, in homage to my mother, on this 40th anniversary, we will run this episode in English.

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Many of you know how we began on January 30th, 2025 as a collective.

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Many of you know that the story unfolds its beginning at the Biosphere Festival on the beach of Vombsjön that Friday afternoon.

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What you do not know is these three, these three behind-the-scenes stories that got us here.

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And we are going to get into those.

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Act 1, My Mother

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For the event on September 13, 2024, my mother had purchased a pair of wader boots.

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She wore my father's cast-aside high-tech performance rain jacket.

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He had managed to argue for a new one on warranty,

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convinced the one he was discarding was no longer waterproof for his seven-day solo hikes near Abisko.

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He had, in fact, finished up one of these hikes, actually, the day before, and was heading south.

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We didn't know it yet, but my father would need to spend the next couple days in Uppsala,

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because my grandfather, my farfar, had suffered a stroke and would pass away a few days later.

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Hello, Fa-fa. I hope you hear me. I hope you're listening, too.

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Anyways, to jump back in, my mother was in these waders, and she was attempting to meet Vombsjön

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She said that there could be contact, unlike we had always assumed contact could be,

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between the lake water body and hers.

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Her body made of water,

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her body that drank water,

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the lake's body and her body connected.

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I was around too.

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I was about a year and a half years old,

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hanging out in Lunda with Mimi and Hoowah,

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my American visiting grandparents.

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My mother must have orchestrated the whole situation

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so she could be present at the shoreline.

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She and her collaborators,

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Frederik, Agnieszka and Markus were there.

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Documentation was taken of this day.

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Many of you have seen things for this day in the archive,

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such as the teaser video where my mother states outright,

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I think we are connected, or something like that, something bold like that.

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But what you have never heard is this letter,

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a letter I wrote to my mother years later,

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reflecting upon the consequences of that very day,

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the consequences that affected both our lives tremendously.

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[music] I stand at the edge of Vombsjön,

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the water lapping gently at my boots, just as you did all those years ago.

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I hold your worn blue notebook in my hands, its pages filled with your handwriting.

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Your words echo in my mind, a blend of curiosity, wonder, and a deep longing for connection.

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You were ahead of your time.

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You understood that the boundaries between ourselves and the natural world are porous,

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that communication extends beyond words.

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You questioned the very notion of consent, of invasion,

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and a world that often takes without asking.

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I see the algae bloom you described, a vibrant reminder of nature's cycles.

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I feel the wind on my face,

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the same wind that whispered through the trees as you pondered the lake's name,

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its identity beyond human labels.

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You asked, how do you communicate?

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And I believe Vombsjön answered,

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in the ripple of their waves.

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Perhaps we just needed to learn to listen differently.

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And thanks to you, your incredible work with your friend and colleague, Dr. Evelyn Walsh,

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we are now learning to listen.

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The Whispers of the Lake, once a mystery, are being deciphered,

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revealing a deep concern for the future.

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Your questions, your musings were not in vain.

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They were the first step on a path that has led to a global awakening.

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so as you see it was that very day 40 years ago when mom started to understand how she and Vombsjön

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was connected she recorded her process in a blue notebook on that day she always had a notebook on

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her most of the time it was filled with notes from her students presentations and lists so many to-do

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lists she was always trying to organize herself and even me through those notebooks but this one

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also had her research and thoughts from the initial contact.

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It also had so many scribbles.

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One of my earliest memories is scribbling in her notebooks.

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Our book, Corresponding Through Sand and Water,

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a biography of my mother,

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which I collaborated in writing with Vombsjön itself,

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chronicles from this time in my mother's life

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until the fifth anniversary of the Liminal Council.

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The birthing process of our cooperative was a flurry of activity,

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and I tried my very best to get the most important highlights of that time

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in the book project. A time when I was just preschooler, but I actually remember some of it.

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Or maybe I should attribute my memories to the archivist who did a good job collecting the vast

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collection of archived material. Anyway, as you can expect, working on the book project,

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Vombsjön and I spent a lot of time in the Liminal Council's archive.

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What does your mother think about the book you wrote about her?

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Oh, she can't be bothered so much about it. When I started the project, she told me to champion

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and Vombsjön. And that's it. But Vami and I, that's what I call them since I was a kid,

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we unilaterally agreed that my mother needed to be our focus. She didn't argue so much after that,

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but I'm sure it was hard for her because she had been listening to Vami all these years and really

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promoting the listening to Vami. All in all, though, I'm pretty lucky, and she always has tried

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did her very best to support me in my pursuits, perhaps even too much when it has been having a

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project that had some kind of creativeness to it. We used to fight when I was a teenager because I

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was just, you know, I was just a less motivated teenager. And my mother, the ultimate doer,

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juggler of many jobs, cultures, and family life, all of it, juggle, juggle, juggle, juggle. She

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undoubtedly struggled to empathize with me as a kid. We just wanted her to "lägg av" [swedish for lay off], you know?

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Sounds like you two just had a typical mother-daughter relationship to me, but you have worked together for most of your career, which for some of us can be an impossible task working with family.

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Can you tell us about a moment that the cause was more important than the nitty-gritty of your personal relationship with your mother? Can you tell us more about that?

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Oh, without a doubt. It was when the manifesto was, well, manifested.

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By this time, we were a small team of humans working day and night, but more importantly,

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we had become a large team of waters.

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This is a declaration from the waters.

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We are the waters, the essence of life itself.

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We flow through your veins, your cities, your world.

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We are the silent whisper of the stream, the mighty roar of the ocean.

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witness to the rise and fall of civilizations.

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We have seen your beauty, your cruelty, your potential.

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We are suffering.

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The wounds of your neglect run deep.

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Our purity is poisoned.

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Our creatures are dying.

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The delicate balance of life is on the brink.

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We are speaking.

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In the rising tides, the changing currents,

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the language of science we cry out.

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We are pleading, demanding to be heard.

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Listen to us, embrace us.

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We are not a commodity to be exploited, but a living force to be revered.

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We are not a commodity to be exploited, but a living force to be revered.

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Restore our ecosystems.

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Will you join us in the flow of life or drown in the consequences of your inaction?

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We the waters.

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Elodie,

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The manifesto waters, what we just heard, is such a powerful statement.

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As someone who grew up with the understanding of water and now works like a Liminal Council,

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how do you balance the needs of human communities with the demands presented in this manifesto?

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Is there ever a clear cut answer or is it all late in the negotiation space?

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Look, we've been at this for a while now.

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Our first contact moment, 2024.

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That wasn't just yesterday.

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And we've learned so much along the way through prototyping and experimenting.

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One thing I really feel that I should make sure you and the listeners know is that we are in this together.

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We have to be in this together.

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No one is alone, and we are all responsible for each other.

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The manifesto embodies this, and the Liminal Council works every day with the value system, as it's foundation.

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True, we do have our enemies, and we have even had moments where we have not gotten along within ourselves.

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But we must communicate and create community that elevates symbiotic, absolutely symbiotic ways of living together.

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You are made of water.

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Vombsjön is made of water.

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We are all bodies of water.

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And it's just our liminal shores, skins, and experiences that create our borders.

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puff liminalness.

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lim-in-al-ness is actually being on both sides.

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So we are utterly from head to toe or edge to edge one.

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One last question.

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What would you say is the most surprising thing about your mother that you realized since you started this project?

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Well, the main one is that mom, she didn't really like nature so much before this.

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I mean, she liked it, of course, but not like my father,

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who by then was spending ssolo and solitude time in the month at least once a year, if not more.

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It really was Vami that gave her the luck, you know, like the big love.

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It's so funny that she'd known for this now, of being such a nature lover.

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Vami really woke that up in her.

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I guess my mom needed it to be in a social setting, socializing with Vami.

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They were the key to her own awakening.

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Next up on the Liminal Listeners pod is Act 2, the engineering.

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Act 2, we actually were running a remix on an interview my mother and I did together in 2040.

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I was just 17, and it was a gymnasium project for my Misinformation Defiance class.

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Please bear with me because even though by then I had run an AI-generated podcast platform

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with other LC Rappid-ears for about five years, this was the first time I attempted to do

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a more classic interview style segment.

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My mom was on board with it, and I felt it was time to get her long-term friend and collaborator

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in from Studio Light Fredrik to fill in the technological gains for the Rappid-ears to marvel

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and how basic the technology was back then.

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It was pretty basic back then.

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Hello there, our liminal young ones and fellow rapid-ears.

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We are daughter-mother duo Elodie Landin and Samantha Hookway

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coming to you on this special day on May 13, 2040,

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just in time to finish my spring project assignment

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in my Misinformation Defiance class.

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and the purpose of this piece is to alight the foundational technology contribution

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for what we now understand as a normal way of speaking with our water siblings.

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It's particularly pertinent because of what's happening lately in the news with the Takedown campaign,

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run by the Wayfarer Studios reincarnated LCC against the Greta Foundation.

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A lot of that campaign is working to forget the magic of 2025 and the Foundation's media connecting to nature expertise, claiming they were misusing AI while in fact they had connected with other nature entities that just seemed impossible at the time.

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Basically, they were doing similar to us.

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But let's start talking up Uncle Fredrik on this.

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Uncle Fredrik, remember when you were first figuring out how to talk to Vombsjön?

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What was that like?

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Was it scary, exciting, or just plain weird?

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Tell us about how it felt to actually find a way to communicate with Vomsjön using the tech you were building.

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Well, Elodie, when I first started trying to figure out how to communicate with Vomsjön, I wasn't scared.

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Not really.

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Mostly I was just curious and open to whatever might happen.

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The whole thing was exhilarating, you know, like exploring completely unknown territory.

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The idea of actually connecting with Vomsjön, communicating with them,

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was so intriguing that it kind of pushed any nervousness into the background.

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That makes sense, knowing you as well as I do, Uncle Fredrik.

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Can you tell me more?

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Yeah.

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The beginning was full of wonder, excitement.

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I was so eager to learn, to understand how Vombsjön's language worked, its culture, the way it lived.

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Every interaction felt like discovering something new, broadening my horizons.

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Of course there were challenges, but I was so determined, so driven by my curiosity,

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my desire to bridge that communication gap, that I just kept going.

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Did you have any, like, OMG, what just happened?

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Moments when you were building those early prototypes?

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Any funny stories about the water trying to talk back?

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So basically, those early AI agents were lifesavers.

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Think of them as digital shamans, guiding us through a total blizzard of quantum fabric data.

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At that stage, they were still external tools, not fully part of our fused us.

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Not yet.

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We were just starting to understand the chaotic noise of the quantum fabric, and the agents were essential for sifting through all the sensor readings, finding the actual signal in all that noise.

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So, they were like filters?

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Something like that, yes. They pinpointed problems, filtered out useless data, found interference.

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They gave us a framework to start fixing things, to actually move forward.

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This was super important because the sensor data was so unreliable, noisy, distorted,

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spitting out random readings because of stuff happening outside the system.

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Without those agents, we'd have been completely lost in the chaos.

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Fascinating.

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Yeah.

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One funny thing happened when an agent misinterpreted a high-frequency background hum

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as a message from some unknown quantum dimension.

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it started generating responses in what it thought was the language of this dimension.

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Clicks, whistles, even these weird noises like old dial-up modems.

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Ever heard of those?

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Ah, the sounds from the early 1990,

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when your old uncle here first got on the internet in my dorm at Chalmers,

223
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using SLIP and cyberspace developments,

224
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the internet adapter, internet at home,

225
00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:16,200
another crazy idea at the time, as strange as talking to a lake.

226
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I can only imagine.

227
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:19,560
Yes, yes.

228
00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:23,500
So for a few hours, we actually thought we'd made first contact,

229
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,300
until we realized the agent had just confused a faulty power supply with,

230
00:18:28,940 --> 00:18:31,220
you know, interdimensional communication.

231
00:18:32,300 --> 00:18:33,000
It was hilarious.

232
00:18:34,100 --> 00:18:37,740
Scientists huddled around a screen, listening to digital gibberish,

233
00:18:38,460 --> 00:18:41,140
seriously discussing the implications of modem language.

234
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:48,800
[Sam breaks in] Fredrik, this is sort of a side note, sort of not, but I'll never forget the look on your face

235
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:54,040
when we first listened to how Vombsjön reasoned actually matched our reasoning

236
00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:57,780
when of making the interface for liminal contact.

237
00:18:59,220 --> 00:19:06,900
I recall that liminal comes from the Latin word limon, which means threshold.

238
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So liminal spaces are those in between places, neither here nor there.

239
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The spaces of transition and ambiguity.

240
00:19:18,100 --> 00:19:19,840
Now applying that to a lake interface.

241
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:27,160
An interface is basically a point where two systems meet and interact.

242
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,340
Can you take us back to that moment?

243
00:19:31,140 --> 00:19:32,500
What was going through your mind?

244
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:38,080
Well, you see, if we've discovered this form of awareness in water,

245
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what other forms of consciousness might we be sharing our planet with?

246
00:19:43,060 --> 00:19:46,640
We could be surrounded by forms of intelligence we haven't recognized yet,

247
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simply because we haven't had the right combination of technology and imagination to perceive them.

248
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,860
And that might be the most important lesson from this whole story.

249
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Sometimes the greatest scientific breakthroughs come not just from advanced technology,

250
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,560
but from being willing to ask questions that seem impossible at first glance,

251
00:20:07,620 --> 00:20:09,920
like wondering if a lake might have something to say.

252
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,340
And I can add the little aside observation

253
00:20:15,380 --> 00:20:19,680
that once you and Vamjin started speaking to each other,

254
00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:23,540
it was hard at times to get some words into your conversations.

255
00:20:24,380 --> 00:20:27,980
A total spark of dialoguing and reasoning between you all.

256
00:20:29,420 --> 00:20:33,980
Mom always said she was worried you were going to like fuse with the lake or something.

257
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,100
Did you ever feel like that was a possibility?

258
00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:49,620
Yes, exactly. There were times when I was honestly worried about you, like you were getting too caught up in the tech. Did you ever feel like you were losing yourself in the project?

259
00:20:49,700 --> 00:21:00,620
You know, in a class at Valand, we read Rebecca Solnit's "A Field Guide to Getting Lost", which made me realize that getting lost feeds my curiosity.

260
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,700
I've sought that feeling before and ever since.

261
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,140
Being lost doesn't mean losing yourself.

262
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:15,820
I've consistently and curiously employed advanced technology, and I've never felt it would lead to self-loss,

263
00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:20,220
only to getting lost and finding new friends to fuse with.

264
00:21:21,340 --> 00:21:26,140
Uncle Fredrik, do you remember what were some other dilemmas Mom and you were mulling over at the time?

265
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:31,660
Well, when we're talking about using tech to force connections, consent is huge.

266
00:21:32,780 --> 00:21:39,320
Tech can help us chat and stuff, but it should never be used to push, bother, or trick someone into a relationship,

267
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,340
or even just a chat if they're not into it.

268
00:21:43,300 --> 00:21:49,260
Everyone and everything needs to be free and to have the right to choose who they connect with and how.

269
00:21:50,380 --> 00:21:54,600
Tech should help us all to connect, not be a tool to force some.

270
00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:01,080
Also, we recognize that many native cultures have strong, unbroken connections,

271
00:22:02,420 --> 00:22:06,740
unlike maybe we Swedes often have, where we may have unconnected as of lately,

272
00:22:07,580 --> 00:22:12,520
with their communities, ancestors, and most importantly, with the nature.

273
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:19,960
These connections come from traditions, rituals, and ways of life passed down through generations

274
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:27,920
and often involving storytelling through songs and ceremonies to keep history, values, and culture alive.

275
00:22:29,540 --> 00:22:34,560
A deep connection to the land and sustainable living practices are also key aspects.

276
00:22:35,980 --> 00:22:40,560
These cultures show us that real connections come from respect, shared experiences,

277
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:42,760
and really understanding each other.

278
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,660
It's not something you can just force or make happen with tech.

279
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:49,480
Tech can help us keep up with people

280
00:22:50,140 --> 00:22:51,660
and make those connections stronger

281
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,480
if we use it wisely and respectfully.

282
00:22:55,620 --> 00:22:57,180
We can learn a lot from these cultures

283
00:22:58,060 --> 00:22:59,380
about making real relationships

284
00:23:00,300 --> 00:23:02,080
and using tech in a good way.

285
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,240
Our dear friend Thomas Laurien

286
00:23:06,020 --> 00:23:07,980
was invaluable in our mulling of this topic.

287
00:23:21,300 --> 00:23:26,400
Okay, to bring this back to today, Mom, I was so little when all the started, did you ever

288
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,000
think about how it might attack me going up the lake for a best friend?

289
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:44,360
I never thought of it that way, that

290
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:45,880
Vombsjön is your best friend.

291
00:23:46,660 --> 00:23:48,520
I always thought that Håkan is your best friend,

292
00:23:48,700 --> 00:23:50,320
but perhaps he is your neighbor

293
00:23:50,540 --> 00:23:52,340
brother, and that could be a different distinction.

294
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:54,640
Anyways, you're totally

295
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,420
right. You were tiny when we made

296
00:23:56,780 --> 00:23:58,220
contact with Vombsjön in 2024.

297
00:23:59,300 --> 00:24:08,960
And admittedly, back then, I had no idea what the consequences were of this work for you, for me, for Uncle Fredrik, for Vombsjön, and so many more.

298
00:24:09,620 --> 00:24:14,000
This experimenting with contact mechanisms at the shoreline work, we did.

299
00:24:14,980 --> 00:24:19,020
I mean, I'm not sure if I even believed we could make contact back then.

300
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:24,180
I had some sort of faith, but we still hadn't done it yet.

301
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,600
It was a weird optimism, and your Uncle Fredrik was undoubtedly the most optimistic.

302
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:35,440
He is always is, he is always ahead of the rest of us in how we will experiment with the technology.

303
00:24:36,260 --> 00:24:40,940
At any rate, it was our goal to sincerely consider how the lake feels to be consumed.

304
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,760
Shared, parched, replenished, dehydrated, invaded, and more.

305
00:24:46,340 --> 00:24:48,160
It was not clear how we would do that consideration.

306
00:24:49,140 --> 00:24:50,920
We have this inkling to go for it.

307
00:24:51,220 --> 00:24:54,140
To go for communicating with the Vombsjön directly.

308
00:24:55,420 --> 00:24:58,700
Then it turned out that we realized we had already had contact.

309
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,060
that we just were missing the consciousness of the contact.

310
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,540
And the rest is actually history, as you well know, I believe.

311
00:25:09,340 --> 00:25:13,400
And even though it has been a joyful thing to watch,

312
00:25:14,100 --> 00:25:18,380
to witness your relationship over the last 40 years with Vombsjön,

313
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,040
a relationship that only you two can really know about,

314
00:25:22,580 --> 00:25:28,180
I cannot say it's not been all rosies and posies in my observational view.

315
00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:30,940
I'm not sure if I worried more about

316
00:25:31,140 --> 00:25:33,280
Bombon and you than say Håkan

317
00:25:33,380 --> 00:25:35,040
and you but always I had an ear

318
00:25:35,180 --> 00:25:36,800
out if there's a relationship happening

319
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,040
that hurt you and then I could

320
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:40,820
not turn to social media

321
00:25:41,060 --> 00:25:43,000
or parent hidden books to help me

322
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:44,960
navigate your relationship with a non

323
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:46,960
human entity I could lead

324
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:48,080
the work of Thomas Laurien

325
00:25:48,860 --> 00:25:51,080
Donna Haraway and any others that

326
00:25:51,140 --> 00:25:53,180
were crossing my academic desk

327
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:54,680
at the time but

328
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,219
you and Vombsjön having a friendship

329
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,420
that was usually beneficial, like the ones I've only managed to have with human entities,

330
00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:08,180
this was uncharted territory for me as a mother. And Vombsjön in the late 2030s was, well,

331
00:26:08,900 --> 00:26:14,540
quite frankly, they were, well, they were, they were pissed off. Pissed off enough to even create

332
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:20,339
a legal battle with the Liminal Council in 2042. And during all this happening that led up to the

333
00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:27,840
dispute, I was very worried about what was being asked of you particularly. I mean, you were both

334
00:26:28,300 --> 00:26:32,680
Vombsjön's friend, but you were also the Liminal Council. That must have been incredibly tough.

335
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:38,040
Did you feel that you were stuck in the middle then? We actually have never talked about this

336
00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:43,919
in this way. What one of the life have you been? Well, mom, it's news to you that I feel Vombsjön

337
00:26:43,940 --> 00:26:46,220
is my girlfriend? I can't be true.

338
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:48,360
Vami and untold you

339
00:26:48,620 --> 00:26:49,360
this many times.

340
00:26:50,740 --> 00:26:51,700
Pay attention, will you?

341
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:53,300
But I'm glad you're curious now anyways,

342
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,140
Then what's my answer?

343
00:26:56,740 --> 00:26:58,120
Well, the dispute

344
00:26:58,380 --> 00:26:59,860
was three years ago, now.

345
00:27:00,460 --> 00:27:02,000
The best water under the bridge

346
00:27:02,140 --> 00:27:03,920
at this point, between Vami and I.

347
00:27:05,820 --> 00:27:06,260
I remember

348
00:27:06,380 --> 00:27:08,120
at the time, though, I had many thoughts

349
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:09,360
as the air emotionally torn.

350
00:27:09,780 --> 00:27:11,939
You were right. I was undoubtedly pulled

351
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,020
between two worlds at any one time.

352
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,360
To say my loyalty lived in a space of conflict

353
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:19,720
is an understatement.

354
00:27:20,780 --> 00:27:23,520
2040 here was an memorable overwhelming year.

355
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,000
I had just graduated from gymnasium

356
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,480
and Vami and I were close by then,

357
00:27:29,940 --> 00:27:31,660
but still our relationship had moments

358
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:32,980
of adolescent tendency.

359
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,120
Vami, also the most wise,

360
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,960
was also new to having such relationships

361
00:27:39,340 --> 00:27:41,240
to direct contact like we have had.

362
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:47,940
inadvertently and on purpose mom by the things you set off i would say i had to play the mediator

363
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:55,920
role and for a conflict that i had been bringing up was on its way oh but was i just

364
00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:03,180
a teenager so the adults didn't hear me it was frustrating to be honest i think if long me was

365
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:10,320
heard earlier by more than me the year 2042 dispute could have been avoided so even though i had seen

366
00:28:10,340 --> 00:28:16,940
it coming, I still was stuck being the translator of sorts for both sides. I couldn't explain the

367
00:28:17,220 --> 00:28:22,420
rationale of the council's decisions to Vami, and I had to be Vami's absolute defender to the

368
00:28:22,780 --> 00:28:28,500
Council. Vami, by then, had many rights as a lake who would speak its need explicitly into the

369
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,960
via through protection area of the Storkriket.

370
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:06,920
I see mouse. I see. And I am sorry if you felt like I was not there for you back then. I must admit, I felt like I was forced to be on both sides as well.

371
00:29:07,900 --> 00:29:15,460
And since you were just becoming a legal mature age, I was doing the best I could give you as much agency and not interfere too much.

372
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:26,120
Plus, this was the same timing in our lives where we were unboxing the mystery of your genetic mother's family and the half of dozen siblings we had not found yet.

373
00:29:26,900 --> 00:29:30,960
As you know, I was doing my very best with undoubtedly flawed moments,

374
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,240
keeping my feelings out of this process,

375
00:29:33,980 --> 00:29:36,100
to follow curiosities we both had

376
00:29:36,500 --> 00:29:40,920
but undoubtedly I was working out some of the triggers that this process brings into my body.

377
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,920
This is not something I could discuss with you at the time,

378
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:46,520
but I guess it's okay now, right?

379
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:48,960
That you're in your forties, or at least I hope so.

380
00:29:50,300 --> 00:29:55,300
I think you were navigating lots of relationships that were beyond my views and controls at this point.

381
00:29:55,780 --> 00:29:59,300
To be honest, I'm glad to hear how you frame your relationship with Vami.

382
00:29:59,940 --> 00:30:05,280
And now, of course, I see them as your best friend, but back then I was maybe witnessing a lot of relationships,

383
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,200
including your first love, coming home to us and practically moving in, you know?

384
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,720
But let's not go into that lovely disaster, shall we?

385
00:30:17,300 --> 00:30:19,840
Yes, yes, Mom. It was a tricky time to be a teenager.

386
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:26,820
I suppose it is the same for all of us, even though we had specialness that was uniquely about us at the time.

387
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:33,940
At any rate, we are lucky for us that this portion of this episode of timing has just run out,

388
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,120
so we can immediately continue the conversation in private instead.

389
00:30:38,540 --> 00:30:39,540
Let's do that, mom. 

390
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:50,640
To move on, the next act, Act 3, is going to uncover the dispute of 2042 between Vombsjön and the Liminal Council.

391
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:58,520
I believe it also can actually unpack some of the elements of the last minutes you just heard, dear audience, so stay tuned for Act 3.

392
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:09,040
If you're just hearing it, this is the Liminal Listeners Pod, and I am Elodie Landin, your host.

393
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:17,780
For this act, Act 3, The Dispute Between Us, we will be led by Belle Glass, a Skåne-Region archivist and scholar.

394
00:31:18,900 --> 00:31:27,980
In this act, Belle will delve into the details and reveal insights into the events of that fateful year, year 2042, in the Liminal Council's history.

395
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:37,400
To say there was a major falling out moment in 2042 is perhaps an understatement to make.

396
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:43,180
It had been brewing for some time by then, but the apex of all the tensions alluding to in the previous act

397
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,340
came to a head in a litigious dispute between Vombsjön and the Liminal Council.

398
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,040
The case became known as Vombsjön v. Liminal Council.

399
00:31:51,780 --> 00:31:57,220
The lawsuit is a successor to legal recognitions and legal cases won by New Zealand's Whanganui River,

400
00:31:57,860 --> 00:32:02,420
with Lake Vombsjön practicing their rights just as Whanganui has done over and over again.

401
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,280
The court archives explain the following.

402
00:32:06,900 --> 00:32:09,900
Public court documents reveal that in this case,

403
00:32:10,780 --> 00:32:15,140
Vombsjön's natural rights lawyers argued three main points against the defender.

404
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,280
One, lack of consent.

405
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:25,460
The lawsuit emphasizes that the lake has never given consent for its waters to be used in this way.

406
00:32:26,260 --> 00:32:30,380
It challenges the anthropocentric view that humans have dominion over nature,

407
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:35,460
arguing for a more equitable relationship based on respect and reciprocity.

408
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:38,920
2. Ecocide

409
00:32:39,300 --> 00:32:52,880
Vombsjön  argued that decades of excessive water extracted by the Liminal Council's cooperative members, particularly Lundkommun, had formed a crisis state and put it in the status of an ecocide.

410
00:32:53,740 --> 00:32:58,160
The team referenced the precedent case of Whanganui River vs.

411
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:07,120
Wanganui River District Council, where an ecocide was proven to be a crime against the rights of another waterbody.

412
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,380
Third, misrepresentation of voice.

413
00:33:12,580 --> 00:33:19,800
Vombsjön argued that the Liminal Council had been overreaching in its use of AI as a tool to mediate the lake's voice,

414
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,660
and thus was defamation of character.

415
00:33:24,140 --> 00:33:28,460
While the Liminal Council's legal team defended itself with the following points.

416
00:33:29,420 --> 00:33:31,860
One. Human need.

417
00:33:33,060 --> 00:33:38,180
Liminal Council maintained that it has a responsibility to provide water to its citizens

418
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,820
and that Lake Vombsjön is the most viable source.

419
00:33:43,060 --> 00:33:46,480
They argue that their water management practices are sustainable

420
00:33:47,060 --> 00:33:50,380
and that they have taken steps to mitigate environmental impact.

421
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,400
The Council argued that they are one of many inside the same ecosystem

422
00:33:56,220 --> 00:33:59,200
and is a victim of the ecocide alongside Vombsjön.

423
00:34:00,580 --> 00:34:02,860
2. Acting in good faith

424
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:09,080
Liminal Council argued that the AI voice used as tool to speak directly to Vombsjön

425
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:14,419
was an act of good faith to represent Vombsjön to those illiterate to direct communication.

426
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,540
In the end, the lawsuit settled out of court,

427
00:34:25,060 --> 00:34:26,939
with Vombjön as the vindicated winner

428
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,080
and the Liminal Council being held accountable for all accounts,

429
00:34:30,580 --> 00:34:33,860
Lack of Consent, Ecocide, and Misrepresentation of Character.

430
00:34:34,879 --> 00:34:38,060
Part of the process of the case was that a court-appointed mediator

431
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,899
was assigned to try to mend the relationship between the plaintiff and the defendant.

432
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,060
The judge described in their closing statement that,

433
00:34:45,500 --> 00:34:47,520
unfortunately, this could not be a divorce,

434
00:34:48,179 --> 00:34:51,220
as perhaps would have solved things between a human-to-human relationship.

435
00:34:52,399 --> 00:34:55,220
Amending was determined to be inevitable and non-reputable.

436
00:34:56,780 --> 00:35:03,800
As I remember it, the court appointed a mediator, and that mediator was like a lifesaver in just three sessions.

437
00:35:04,580 --> 00:35:08,820
As they brilliantly listened to both sides and made sure the sides felt heard.

438
00:35:09,860 --> 00:35:19,920
I mean, this process seemed like it was impossible for Vombsjön and the Liminal Council to actually negotiate where they could speak together again in a respectful tone.

439
00:35:20,580 --> 00:35:28,960
Ultimately, this led to the waterful cooperative language, which we use to this date and which we normally use in this podcast.

440
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:36,280
So in retrospect, I suppose we were relatively lucky in a way that we got to go through this process with the mediator.

441
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,060
Could I would have never said this at the time?

442
00:35:39,540 --> 00:35:40,580
That is interesting, Elodie.

443
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,740
I found some recorded notes in the archive of that process.

444
00:35:44,580 --> 00:35:50,160
Unfortunately, we have the notes of only one of the three court-appointed sessions, the second and middle meeting.

445
00:35:51,020 --> 00:35:54,780
The other two must have been lost in the treated flood of 2053

446
00:35:55,600 --> 00:36:00,420
The recordings were kept without any individuals being named and sealed from the public for 10 years

447
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,120
They actually got released in 2052

448
00:36:03,740 --> 00:36:07,960
Just a few months before the treated water flood devastated us all here in Storkriket

449
00:36:08,740 --> 00:36:10,440
Oh wow, was that a disaster

450
00:36:11,100 --> 00:36:14,780
My family has so many stories from those times and particularly my grandparents

451
00:36:15,660 --> 00:36:18,939
Their home has never recovered to what it once was before the flood

452
00:36:19,700 --> 00:36:25,580
Despite the flood's destruction, these surviving notes hold the key to understanding how the dispute turned a corner.

453
00:36:26,300 --> 00:36:30,680
Plus it reveals what Vombsjön was the most concerned with, being misrepresented.

454
00:36:31,660 --> 00:36:36,740
Let's listen in on the mediators' observations to gain insights into what Vombsjön shared with them.

455
00:36:39,700 --> 00:36:45,380
I began with the voice of vombsjön and their concerns.

456
00:36:47,260 --> 00:36:55,720
So the prior first concern was about the belief that they had been falsely represented

457
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:02,900
from the AI generating voice of them over the years,

458
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:11,040
partly because of the way the AI voice had been produced and made,

459
00:37:12,260 --> 00:37:22,360
left the idea that the AI had really only been talking to itself. So in short, not really hearing

460
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:32,240
the Vombsjön opinions and translating that, but merely humans talking to themselves. So

461
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:38,019
gathering ideas about the lake rather than referring to the lake or actually being able

462
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:48,320
to understand the lake's position. So this circular conversation from the perspective of

463
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:58,780
the Vombsjön left with no limitations on what could be withdrawn from that conversation,

464
00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:06,120
apart from the limitations of the human's own moral compass or consciousness.

465
00:38:07,620 --> 00:38:11,560
And it was exemplified by the example of how speed was misunderstood by the two parties.

466
00:38:12,180 --> 00:38:17,680
It was putting across the position of speed that on one level,

467
00:38:18,340 --> 00:38:21,760
its level of comprehension of things,

468
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,780
there was very fast because it engulfs objects.

469
00:38:26,740 --> 00:38:31,720
And so there is and takes it makes it part of itself.

470
00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:36,720
So that's on one level of those things, their comprehension was fast and speedy.

471
00:38:37,340 --> 00:38:43,620
but also on a different level because of the way the water works with its freezing and breaking up

472
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:51,720
and changing the face of the earth. In that way, it's a slower process. And humanity's speed at

473
00:38:52,900 --> 00:38:59,880
doing some of these things in some ways, we're saying, was slower and faster. And that ability

474
00:38:59,900 --> 00:39:09,500
to change their speed into the Vombsjön thinking had never really truly been comprehended or worked

475
00:39:09,660 --> 00:39:16,620
for.  [Elodie] If I may break in here, this misunderstanding about speed was just one symptom of a larger

476
00:39:16,740 --> 00:39:22,400
communication gap. I can tell you that. It's no wonder that tensions escalated and it's a testament

477
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:27,540
to the mediator's skill that they were able to guide us towards a resolution actually. I mean,

478
00:39:27,780 --> 00:39:29,780
I think this was no small feat.

479
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,180
While according to the records, the Liminal Council claimed they are not bad actors,

480
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,420
and they justified the use of the AI-generated voice to represent Vombsjön.

481
00:39:40,180 --> 00:39:45,300
They state that they have always acted in good faith and that their water management practices are sustainable.

482
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:50,460
They also argue that the AI voice was necessary to facilitate communication with Vombsjön,

483
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,180
and that they never intended to misrepresent the lake.

484
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,220
They are afraid that if Vombsjön is given too much agency and independence,

485
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,400
it could threaten their survival and the stability of their economy.

486
00:40:02,060 --> 00:40:06,260
By the end of the recording, the mediator was able to see a positive moment in the negotiations.

487
00:40:08,860 --> 00:40:12,560
That was the main points that were brought out from today.

488
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:23,659
I would also notice and I felt quite satisfied with the idea that we might have a good negotiation point here

489
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:35,560
where the voice of Vombsjön would be willing to probably accept some level of water depletion,

490
00:40:35,900 --> 00:40:47,240
water being taken from its body, as long as we could, we in the Liminal Council and humanity

491
00:40:47,340 --> 00:40:50,160
can acknowledge misrepresentation

492
00:40:50,620 --> 00:40:54,380
and also maybe some boundaries or limitations

493
00:40:54,900 --> 00:40:57,200
to the speed of that depletion.

494
00:40:58,700 --> 00:41:01,240
This last bit in the recording shows a stark contrast

495
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,660
to what the lawsuit was filed as prioritizing

496
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,080
both first the accusations of causing Ecocide

497
00:41:06,500 --> 00:41:09,040
and secondly the lack of consent granted by Vombsjön

498
00:41:09,340 --> 00:41:11,560
over the third point being misrepresentation.

499
00:41:12,340 --> 00:41:14,360
Apparently Vomschen had extra touchiness

500
00:41:14,580 --> 00:41:16,980
in the mediator's sessions about being misrepresented.

501
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:24,220
And what is the most interesting for me as an archivist is imagining what must have happened in both session one and three.

502
00:41:25,100 --> 00:41:33,180
We know the result of all of this. We know that both parties agreed to work together as a collective, but that the language of communication became what it is today.

503
00:41:33,940 --> 00:41:40,760
The waterful language developed specifically for the Liminal Council and its many human and non-human entities who collaborate collectively.

504
00:41:41,740 --> 00:41:51,760
It's incredible, actually, that the mediator pinpointed that the core issues for Vombsjön was actually the misrepresentation bit of the argument of the lawsuit.

505
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:59,020
I mean, all the other media sources at the time described that being the least important thing to Vombsjön

506
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,020
And it really was the most important thing.

507
00:42:02,820 --> 00:42:08,660
And, you know, in the end, it was really Vombsjön's willingness to find a compromise.

508
00:42:09,660 --> 00:42:15,660
And, you know, this highlights how important it is to truly listen and understand different perspectives.

509
00:42:16,860 --> 00:42:22,200
Vombsjön has always been a character that we can truly, truly trust and we need to listen.

510
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:24,160
I can say you are right, Elodie.

511
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:29,680
Oh, and if there is only one small aside, to add that I would like you listeners to humor me on,

512
00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:33,460
the mediator should have been given a medal or paid more or something.

513
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,700
The results that we now know, they definitely were not being felt back then.

514
00:42:41,700 --> 00:42:42,700
Notes for myself.

515
00:42:44,500 --> 00:42:45,920
This was a very long day.

516
00:42:46,940 --> 00:42:53,000
And it took quite a lot for both of the parties

517
00:42:53,560 --> 00:43:01,100
to really believe in the other party being a genuine concern

518
00:43:01,340 --> 00:43:14,240
and not bad actors or not coming from a dishonest place.

519
00:43:16,140 --> 00:43:23,560
But I think we are getting that, so that is a good place to end the day.

520
00:43:33,300 --> 00:43:35,840
Can you dear listeners imagine being in their position?

521
00:43:36,500 --> 00:43:37,440
Two angry sides.

522
00:43:38,100 --> 00:43:41,160
A lawsuit with court-appointed officials demanding reconciliation

523
00:43:41,860 --> 00:43:43,940
and doing this before the beloved shared language

524
00:43:44,260 --> 00:43:46,720
was even more than a word or two understood by all?

525
00:43:54,580 --> 00:43:56,440
But as we know, it was worth the work.

526
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,620
The Liminal Council and Vombsjön now work with each other

527
00:44:00,100 --> 00:44:01,740
and with all sorts of beings and entities

528
00:44:02,100 --> 00:44:04,380
to maintain a healthy balance in our shared environment.

529
00:44:05,420 --> 00:44:08,100
The story of the lawsuit and the subsequent reconciliation

530
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,960
is a powerful reminder that even the most intractable conflicts

531
00:44:12,540 --> 00:44:14,640
can be resolved through open communication,

532
00:44:15,340 --> 00:44:17,820
empathy, and a willingness to find common ground.

533
00:44:20,340 --> 00:44:21,160
Yes, absolutely.

534
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:22,000
Thank you, Belle.

535
00:44:22,260 --> 00:44:22,680
Thank you again.

536
00:44:23,300 --> 00:44:26,420
This journey towards balance and understanding is definitely ongoing,

537
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:28,260
and that's why, at the Liminal Council,

538
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,020
we always remain committed to listening, marming, and flowing.

539
00:44:32,820 --> 00:44:34,380
So, thank you so much.

540
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,180
Dear listeners, this is all the time we have for this episode.

541
00:44:40,980 --> 00:44:50,360
Episode 736 of the Liminal Listener Pod, created by the Liminal Council Productions, as part of Project Thoughts and Yobin.

542
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:52,280
Thanks again.